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and what we might see in the coming decades with abundant cost of energy supplies that could have a dramatic impact on what we might see in terms of being able to proceed with a manufacturing growth in manufacturing continuation of employment here that is not independent on the innovation or high-tech industries which we should very much be supporting. that's something to keep an eye on. >> i'm glad you mentioned energy because i was getting very depressed talking about the middle class i think it is the single biggest issue in america today. will be part of the energy solution. >> i wish that i had included that because heidi is completely right. it is a great thing that is happening in terms of the availability in the natural gas where as you know it isn't a well liked commodity where it's produced which means if you have as much of it as we have at the moment, the price is low relative to the cost of oil and therefore we can attract energy intensive manufacturing in north dakota and eastern ohio to wherever to take advantage of it and that is a great thing and i don't want to m
underutilization of capital i equipment. the one issue we need to face is resource costs and energy prices. that is not a question which is being driven by overuse at the moment, it's being driven by other factors. i'm not as optimistic as stephanie is about the long-term potential path, but is there a trade-off between what we should do to protect our elderly population and to provide adequate medical care to the whole poppation and what we should do to reconstruct our infrastructure and address energy and climate issues? no. we are underperforming on both fronts. >> but there's a -- it's not a budget tear trade-off, it's -- budgetary trade-off, as long as we think revenues can only be this high, then there's a fight among those priorities. we have to accept having higher revenues to pay for the things we want. that softens that trade-off. the entitlements are not, are not a drain on real resources, they're a transfer. but there is a question of public sector investment versus what's going on in the private sector. when we're at full capacity, we have that trade-off. but the issue is, um,
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